宇文所安著，贾晋华等译《晚唐——九世纪中叶的中国诗歌》读书随札（赐教者，个人有

陶梦

  1P24-25：虽然先前并非没有对诗人的轻视，而很多官位显赫的人在此时期仍然以诗歌闻名，但在九世纪下半叶对诗人和诗歌的普遍不信任似乎有所增加。李德裕设法取消了833年进士考试中的诗赋科目，虽然第二年又重新恢复。李德裕是以门荫入仕的，他提出了基本上为门荫制度辩护的理由，这种辩护不是完全没有说服力的。比起那些能够根据命题写出言辞精巧的诗赋的人，出身于高官家庭的年轻人更懂得官职的真正要求。的确，应试诗并不是我们现在所称的真正“诗歌”。然而，在普通人的印象中，诗歌才能在一般意义上似乎就是指撰写应试诗的能力。很多有才能的诗人在经验中发现这种假定的谬误性。
  2P24-25：Although contempt for poets was not unknown in earlier periods, and although many well-placed officials wre still known for their poetry in our period, the general distrust of poets and poetry seems to have increased in the second quarter of the ninth century. Li Deyu had managed to get poetry and poetic expositions (FU) removed from the 833 examination for JINSHI, though it was reinstated the following year. Li Deyu, who had come to office through YIN privilege, offered what was essentially a rationalization of the YIN privilege-one that was not entirely unpersuasive. Young men who grew up in the households of high officials had more understanding of the real demands of public office than someone who could compose a rhetorically well crafted poem and a poetic exposition on a set theme. Indeed, examination verse was not what we would now consider ture "poetry". nevertheless, in the popular imagination poetic talent in the usual sense seemde to imply the capacity to write exzamination verse. Many talented poets discovered the fallacy of this assumption empirically.

  案：
  加粗的地方翻译得有些笨拙。
  试译——
  依靠门荫入仕的李德裕阐释了这种制度的合理性，其中不乏合理之处。

  又案：
  应试诗与寻常诗作的关系是什么，热爱诗赋与禁止诗赋取士又有什么样的关系，这两种关系在文学史上有什么样的意义和作用？不知宇文有没有注意到？也不知道他有没有参考相关的资料。从书后的征引文献上看，似乎他并不重视这些方面。

liumx2000

[quote]引用第29楼陶梦于2011-03-29 20:33发表的 :

陶梦

  1P25：另外，称赏诗歌可能会被视作是一种危险的、不务正业的爱好。
  2P25：To admire poetry, moreover, might be looked upon as a dangerous diversion from serious pursuits,
  案：这一句之翻译，与前面指出的种种翻译判若两人。令人费解。

  1P27：当李珏谈到诗人的时候，他不只是指写诗的人，而是指以写诗为业的人。（此类人如果担任中书舍人的职务〈起草诏令〉，李珏会将他们看作是“担任中书舍人的诗人”，而不是“写诗的中书舍人”。“诗人”是此类人的首要定义，他们所承当的任何官位都是次要的。实际上，诗歌已成为一个独立的领域，自成一种职业，因此潜在地与担任官职不同，当官被看成是一种不同的职业和能力。李珏的推断，与李德裕反对进士试诗的观点在前提上很接近。）
  2P26:When Li Jue spoke of "poets", he did not simply mean those who wrote poetry but rather someone who was somehow defined by that activity.(He would see such a person in, say, the post of Drafter [of edicts] as "a poet serving as a Drafter" rather than a "Drafter who writes poetry". "Being a poet" was the primary definition of such a person, and any office that person might hold was secondary. In effect, poetry had become a separate sphere a vocation in its own right, and thus potentially distinct from office-holding, which was seen as a different vocation and capacity. Li Jue's assumption is close to the premise for Li Deyu's argument against the use of poetry in the JINSHI examination.）

  案：根据上下文意思，以及simply的涵义，加粗句的翻译可能出了一些差错。
  试译——
  李珏此处所说的“诗人”，并不是指所有写诗的人，而是指那些以写诗为职业的人。



  1P27：后世为我们提供了大量活跃于838年的名声或大或小的诗人，但李廓绝对是名声较小的一位。
  2P27：Posterity has given us a great many poets of greater or lesser fame active in 838-and Li Kuo is someone of decidedly lesser fame.
  案：posterity可以翻译为“后世”是没有错误的。但就这么直译下来，逻辑哪里去了？有些奇怪。
  试译——
  大量活跃于838年的诗人，在后世的名声或大或小，但李廓绝对是名声较小的一位。

woi55

[quote]引用第38楼白马西北驰于2011-03-30 09:01发表的

陶梦

  1P28：我们可以看到，李珏担忧诗人会批评当时的政策，这主要是对元和时代的记忆，而不是对九世纪三十年代现行诗歌实践的评判。更令人不安的是想到一群不受控制的年轻人获得名声，超出官僚机构用正常渠道分配名声的方式，对他们施加的监管。
  2P28：We might observe here that Li Jue's anxiety that poets might criticize current policy was certainly more a memory of the Yuanhe Reign than a judgment of the current poetic practice of the 830s. More troubling was the thought of an uncontrolled pool of young men gaining MING 名, "name" or "fame", beyond the reach of bureaucratic oversight that allotted degrees of MING through the usual channels. Hanlin Academicians of Poetry would have been the worstcase scenario; such men would have been appointed outside bureaucratic channels and would have had direct access to this poetry-loving emperor, earning his protection and favor.

  案：加粗的句子试译如下——
  更令李珏担心的是，年轻人将增加一条获取声名的渠道，正常的升迁奖赏制度却无法对这条渠道进行有效监控。

陶梦

  1P30：参加考试的年轻人远比通过考试的人多，很多人参加许多次考试。通过考试的年轻人的数量，刚刚足够使人们存有希望而使该制度继续生存。
  2P30：For more young men took the examination than passed, and many took the examination a number of times. Just enough young men passed to keep the system alive to maintain hope.
  案：第二句的翻译是不是有些不通顺呢？
  
  1P33：两位较年轻的诗人贾岛（779-843）和姚合（779-849）可能与元稹同岁，他们在诗歌界已经产生重要的影响。即使在827年，“受欢迎”和“有名气”已常常是属于不同圈子或不同地方的现象。然而，在长安贾岛和姚合可能可以说是当时最受欢迎的诗人。
  2P33：Two somewhat younger poets, Jia Dao 賈島（779-843）and Yao He 姚合 (ca.779-ca.849), probably both the same age as Yuan Zhen, had come to exercise a strong influence in the world of poetry. Even by 827 "popularity" and "fame" were becoming a function of different circles and often of different lacale. Nevertheless, in Chang'an Jia Dao and Yao He were arguably the most popular poets of the day.
  案：译文有点看不懂。
  试译——
  两位有些年轻的诗人贾岛（779-843）和姚合（约779-约849），可能与元稹同岁，他们通过努力，已经在诗歌界产生了很大影响。即使到了827年，“受欢迎”和“有名气”也正在成为不同圈子，有时也包括不同场所的人所追求的目标。
  不知道对不对，希望有高手指点。谢谢。

liumx2000

引用第45楼陶梦于2011-03-30 21:08发表的 :
2P30：燜or more young men took the examination than passed, and many took the examination a number of times. Just enough young men passed to keep the system alive to maintain hope.
2P33：Two somewhat younger poets, Jia Dao 賈島（779-843）and Yao He 姚合 (ca.779-ca.849), probably both the same age as Yuan Zhen, had come to exercise a strong influence in the world of poetry. Even by 827 "popularity" and "fame" were becoming a function of different circles and often of different locale. Nevertheless, in Chang'an Jia Dao and Yao He were arguably the most popular poets of the day.

应试的青年才俊当然是远远多于及格高中的，很多还是几番赴考。而及格人数则刚好足够维持延续考制的得中希望。

也许与元稹同年的贾岛（779-843）和姚合（约779-约849），是两位较为年轻的诗人，他们为诗界造成深远的影响。虽然是827年，“名誉“渐成在不同的场合，乃至在不同的地域里的沽钓对象。饶是如此，贾岛和姚合在长安城里可说当时得令。

我把function理解为比较负面的沽名钓誉“活动“，现在港客好像常有时髦的各种活动(function)，和陶版的目标也没大差别。

冒充了一回高人，乃至惴惴不安。

qq5096717

[quote]引用第28楼陶梦于2011-03-29 18:43发表的

bibliomaniac

[quote]引用第45楼陶梦于2011-03-30 21:08发表的

陶梦

1P41：白居易及其朋友们是退休群体中的一帮文学权威，在洛阳挂着闲职，既远离长安政治的希望和危险，也远离年轻诗人为寻求赏识之到处漂泊。
2P41：In the case of Bai Juyi and his friends, it was a literary establishment situated in a retirement community, realized in sinecures in Luoyang, far from the hopes and perils of political life in Chang'an or the wanderings of younger poets looking for preferment.

案：根据历史知识和宇文所安前后文的相关论述，此处之preferment翻译为“晋升”，倒是很恰当。

bibliomaniac

引用第49楼陶梦于2011-04-04 22:36发表的 :
1P41：白居易及其朋友们是退休群体中的一帮文学权威，在洛阳挂着闲职，既远离长安政治的希望和危险，也远离年轻诗人为寻求赏识之到处漂泊。
2P41：In the case of Bai Juyi and his friends, it was a literary establishment situated in a retirement community, realized in sinecures in Luoyang, far from the hopes and perils of political life in Chang'an or the wanderings of younger poets looking for preferment.

案：根据历史知识和宇文所安前后文的相关论述，此处之preferment翻译为“晋升”，倒是很恰当。

preferment译为“赏识”太泛（干谒的目的一般来说是为了谋得一官半职），用“晋升”又太实（布衣释褐，无所谓晋升），鄙意不若用“汲引”。wanderings我猜作者指的是漫游。

bibliomaniac

引用第1楼陶梦于2011-03-28 15:28发表的 :
1P7-8：下引子兰的诗中，伟大的京城长安的厄运已经注定。有关僧人子兰的生平，我们几乎无一所知，只知道他在唐朝的最后时期还在做诗。此诗前两句可能撰于任何时候，但后两句所唤起的不可能是长安的其他时刻。
  2P7: Chang'an, the great city, was doomed. We know virtually nothing about the monk called Zilan 子蘭 except that he was writing at the end. The first couplet of the follwing poem would have been written at any time, wheareas the second evokes a moment like no other in Chang'an.

  案：第一句和第二句的部分（at the end），译语堪疑。第三句或许就是鲁迅先生所说的“硬译”。其所欲表达的，是否是这种意思呢——单从下引诗歌的前两句看，我们难以确定其写作时间；但是后两句却不一样，诗中所描写的并不是平常时期的长安。。.......

at the end应该是承接上文而言；单从下文a moment like no other in Chang'an猜测，译者的处理是对的——先说子兰（很奇怪，谁会给自己取这么一个类似“秦桧”的名字呢）在唐代末期写诗，接着说所引子兰的诗前两句没有什么时代印记，但是后两句让人觉得只可能是写于唐季。

bibliomaniac

引用第1楼陶梦于2011-03-28 15:28发表的 :
1p8:我们无法确定下面这首诗是否与上一首诗作于同时，但很难不将它作为季节的续篇来阅读。
  2P8：We cannot date with any certainty the following poem in relation to the preceding one, but it is hard not to read it in seasonal sequence.

  案：我们无法确定下面这首诗与上引诗篇的关系，然而我们难以抗拒地按照诗中反映出的季节顺序来展开阅读。
.......

we cannot date the following poem是句子主干，还是原译文近是。

bibliomaniac

引用第2楼陶梦于2011-03-28 16:41发表的 :
[1p8：但是长安城未陷之前，当马群还在奔走，士兵还在被募集去保卫这座城市时，那些宴会上所写的诗篇，可能与我们将要读到的诗篇很相像。
  1P8：Yet the poems written at those parties before the fall-while the horses were galloping outside conscripting men for the defense of the city-were probably very much like the ones we will read here.

  案：“硬译”。“将要读到的诗篇”那是美语中的语法形式，而不是形式之中所蕴含的真正意思。后一句应该翻译为：“那些宴会上所写的诗篇，可能与我们读到的这篇很相像”。
.......

但是长安城未陷之前，当门外蹄声动地募集兵丁守城之际，那些宴会上所写的诗篇，与我们下面将要读到的诗篇（the ones）很有可能很相像——超级硬译哈。

bibliomaniac

引用第2楼陶梦于2011-03-28 16:41发表的 :
1P9：虽然九世纪第二个二十五年的诗歌丰富多样，不允许我们只用单一的总体特征来概括，但我们的确看到新的价值观和兴趣的兴起。
  2P9:Although the diversity of the poetry between thd mid-820s and 860 permits no single overall characterization, we do see new values and interests emerging.

  案：为什么要翻译成“第二个二十五年”呢？难道这里面有行规？不讲究。
.......

也许是版本的问题，“九世纪第二个二十五年”估计是the second quarter of the ninth century的直译。另，这句原文的逻辑似有点问题：Although the diversity ...... permits no single overall characterization, we do see new values and interests emerging. 看这个although下的。

bibliomaniac

关于accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts一句，比较认同Woi55版的理解，poetic production是“诗作”的意思，可以是无形的。一首诗在头脑中完成，即使不写出来，也不妨称之为poetic production。有形的诗作也不必是manuscript，比如题壁诗。

引用第19楼woi55于2011-03-29 14:52发表的 :

您说的对，积累已是事实，但accumulated修饰的是production，未必就是manuscript这种form。

早上向陶梦兄请益后，更坚定我的想法：此处的manuscript，不是“手稿”，而是“抄本”；结合当时的历史阶段（现存最早雕版印刷书《金刚经》成于868年），其实就是“书”的意思，也就是当时的“出版物”。

.......

中肯！一本学习词典对manuscript的解释：an old document or book written by hand in the times before printing was invented。poetic production可以有manuscript以外的accumulated form(be it physical or spiritual).

bibliomaniac

[quote]引用第27楼陶梦于2011-03-29 18:12发表的 :

陶梦

引用第52楼bibliomaniac于2011-04-07 18:08发表的 :


we cannot date the following poem是句子主干，还是原译文近是。

原译文说不通。兄能相助，实在感谢。
既然愿意指教，弟还有一个不情之请，请兄根据原书和译本以教我，谢谢。

bibliomaniac

引用第57楼陶梦于2011-04-08 07:43发表的 :


原译文说不通。兄能相助，实在感谢。
既然愿意指教，弟还有一个不情之请，请兄根据原书和译本以教我，谢谢。

这个难度可大了，也许我会再去图书馆借英文版看看吧。管窥蠡测，错误之处，请指正。

bibliomaniac

[quote]引用第29楼陶梦于2011-03-29 20:33发表的 :