历史大牛说说Medici家族对文艺复兴的核心推动是不是常识？昨晚和一个瑞士老头吵架
妈妈的，我课堂上听来的，书上看来的都是这样。结果昨天跟那个瑞士老头，一个律师，喝咖啡的时候，他听到我说Medici在文艺复兴诞生中的重要作用时，骂我的老师，说Medici只是很普通的家庭，除了两个女儿嫁给法国国王之外，没别的了。还说威尼斯比佛罗伦萨更是古典研究的中心。佛罗伦萨只是文艺复兴后期的中心。偶看教科书只记大概，不记得具体细节，对这种颠倒黑白的言论只能恨得咬牙切齿，今天早上小查了下资料，给他发了封信：Dear Dr. ***,
I hope you wouldn't mind my sending you the little research I did this morning.
1. Was Florence the cradle of the Renaissance?
a.
Burke, P. Burke, The European Renaissance: Centre and Peripheries (Blackwell, Oxford 1998)
“There is a general, but not unchallenged, consensus that the Renaissance began in Tuscany in the 14th century.”
b. Hunt, Jocelyn, The Renaissance: Questions and Analysis in History (Routledge, 1999)
Chapter One “ANALYSIS(2) : DID THE RENAISSANCE BEGIN IN FLORENCE?”
“Nevertheless, it is Florence which is permanently associated with the initial changes of the Renaissance. “
“Florence is certain to remain at the heart of any serious study of the origins and development of the Italian Renaissance.”
c. Hause, Western Civilization: A History of European Society, Chapter 13:
“Medieval scholars knew and quoted classical writers, but the Renaissance that began in Florence in the generation of the Black Death was far more than just another in a series of European infatuations with the antique past.”
d. Italian wikipedia: Il Rinascimento
Il Rinascimento è un periodo artistico e culturale della storia d'Europa, che si sviluppò a partire da Firenze
translation by google: The Renaissance is a period of artistic and cultural history of Europe, which evolved from Florence. 2. Did Medici Family hasten, or even give birth to, the Renaissance?
a. Hans Baron(“Hans Baron (1900 – 1988) was an acclaimed German historian of political thought and literature in the Italian Renaissance.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Baron )
in his paper "Panegyric to the City of Florence and History of the Florentine People", he
“decisively placed Florence and the Medici at the heart of the origins of the Renaissance.”
b. the above was cited from Jerry Brotton (the director of the college's MA in Renaissance Studies), "THE RENAISSANCE A Very Short Introduction".
Also:
“The accumulating wealth and status of merchant bankers laid the foundations for the political power and artistic innovation characteristic of the European Renaissance. The Medici family who dominated Florentine politics and culture throughout the 15th century started out life as merchant bankers.
c. Italian wikipedia has a full range cover of 'Medici'. the followings are few conclusive lines about the Medici Family:
da un lato la storia "buona" dei Medici che compiono il miracolo inatteso del "rinascimento" grazie al denaro delle loro banche; dall'altro la storia "cattiva" dei signori che tolsero la libertà a un popolo felice nella propria democrazia.
translation by google:
the story "good" of the Medici who carries out unexpected miracle of the "renaissance" thanks to the money in their banks and secondly the story "bad" of the gentlemen who took the liberty a people happy in their own democracy.
d. From PBS's series ” Medici: Godfathers of the Renaissance”, I acquired those details about the Medici family who risked their lives on the transport of classic documents from the East,
e.
I didn't go into considerable detail on Will Durant's renowned 'The Story of Civilization: The Renaissance.' (800 pages), of which "BOOK II: THE FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE: 1378-1534" provides a throughout explanation about the essentially constructive impact the Medici had on the renaissance.
but I did find the following descriptions:
"It was under the Medici, or in their day, that the humanists captivated the mind of Italy, turned it from religion to philosophy, from heaven to earth, and revealed to an astonished generation the riches of pagan thought and art.
....
Lured by the reputation of the Medici and other Florentines for generous patronage, scholars flocked to Florence and made it the capital of literary learning."
and in Volume 6, I discoverd the Durant's definitive attitude towards the Medici family:
" Leo, son of Lorenzo the Magnificent, was now head of the Medici family, which had nourished the Renaissance in Florence; he was a scholar, a poet, and a gentleman, kindly and generous, in love with classical literature and delicate art."
Should the conclusion be drawn? Maybe too early. Is it fair to say at least Medici family had been deeply involved into the origin of the Renaissance? Maybe yes, at least to me. I feel equally quite safe to claim the Medici family changed the world as the catalyst of the Renaissance, as I did last night.
Kind regards,
*** 不懂历史，不过觉得这不好算常识，我所觉得的常识应该是文艺复兴在意大利遍地开花了。
没底气家族的影响一口说没了当然是有点过分，说威尼斯更重要则只是个人判断的问题，不比过分突出佛罗伦萨更没道理。
楼主所引的第一段，著名的伯克同志不也说了but not challenged嘛？后边还说啥没有？ 放在学术范围，有些争论不正常吗~~ 引用第2楼parivraj于2009-05-26 19:03发表的 引用第3楼秋水小柯于2009-05-26 19:49发表的 :
放在学术范围，有些争论不正常吗~~
我恨那老头的态度不是一天两天了，上次他一进我家，屁股还没有坐热三分钟，就拿起我一本critical thinking的书大肆批判，让我把它扔到垃圾堆。—— 关键是那厮没看过那本，不知道哪里来的信心。别的书我也忍了，那本刚好是我喜欢的，就跟他顶开了。
昨天我说Medici对文艺复兴推动很大，他一副非常被雷到的样子，批驳前先把我老师骂了一通。mmd，非常气愤。 您没自己研究过，听来看来点东西也别太当真。另外其实不过是生气而已嘛，您要觉得他不懂，就甭理他了，或者给他去了这个信，就等他回复好了，也没必要再来这里发那人的牢骚。律师嘛，很多时候就得把没理的说成有理的，人家也不容易。 引用第6楼parivraj于2009-05-26 22:09发表的 :
您没自己研究过，听来看来点东西也别太当真。另外其实不过是生气而已嘛，您要觉得他不懂，就甭理他了，或者给他去了这个信，就等他回复好了，也没必要再来这里发那人的牢骚。律师嘛，很多时候就得把没理的说成有理的，人家也不容易。
哈哈，谢谢开导！ 今天已经比较心平气和了。。。那厮还未回信，不知道是蹲在图书馆查资料还是准备不回了。。。嘿嘿
我对于课堂上听来的、权威教科书看来的是非常当真的。
大部分历史我们无法亲身经历，对此，史学家研究借助他们觉得可信的体系（各种证据、可靠的方法）去推测；我借助我觉得可信的体系（权威机构的研究成果）去推测——这个体系比我自己研究更可信。
好比进化论，我没有亲自研究过，但是当一个让我有信心的科研机构告诉我"evolution is both a fact and a process..."，我就很当真。我相信该机构，如同史学家相信他们的证据和方法一样。 您当然没必要对权威们所众口一词的东西失去信心（不过您还是得注意一下，自己是怎么对某个权威有信心的。信心这东西跟爱情有时候差不多，都是不知所起，一往而深的，寻死觅活的因之也从来不少），不过权威们不是我这样的碎嘴子，写书是要剪裁的，稿费是有人掐着数儿的，这就自然要把注意力集中在几个点上，而讲课更不可能面面俱到了。此外的东西，或者索性不提，或者一笔带过，视野仅限于某书或者某些关键词的话，很难了知前后周遭的精彩。文艺复兴兴起时的意大利，也许就属于有很多前后周遭的精彩的情况，这一点其实您如果真的细读您自己的某些引文的话，应该也能感受得到，比如“decisively placed Florence and the Medici at the heart of the origins of the Renaissance.” 就有一个”heart“和-s可以注意，如果历史那么单线条的话，甚至根本就不用placed了，还分什么decisive与否？Medici family which had nourished the Renaissance in Flarence跟"Most historians agree that the ideas that characterized the Renaissance had their origin in late 13th century Florence..."说得也是两回子事儿，13世纪末的时候，Medici家族可能还真的是没什么底气呢，您这么一古脑儿的端给人家，别说人是律师惯会作反驳陈词的，就是说给我这样的外行，我也没法服气。
然后您也可以再查查名气可能小点儿的锡耶纳、帕多瓦，希望您不会说这是两票托斯卡纳对一票威尼托。 引用第8楼parivraj于2009-05-27 16:41发表的 :
您当然没必要对权威们所众口一词的东西失去信心（不过您还是得注意一下，自己是怎么对某个权威有信心的。信心这东西跟爱情有时候差不多，都是不知所起，一往而深的，寻死觅活的因之也从来不少），不过权威们不是我这样的碎嘴子，写书是要剪裁的，稿费是有人掐着数儿的，这就自然要把注意力集中在几个点上，而讲课更不可能面面俱到了。此外的东西，或者索性不提，或者一笔带过，视野仅限于某书或者某些关键词的话，很难了知前后周遭的精彩。文艺复兴兴起时的意大利，也许就属于有很多前后周遭的精彩的情况，这一点其实您如果真的细读您自己的某些引文的话，应该也能感受得到，比如“decisively placed Florence and the Medici at the heart of the origins of the Renaissance.” 就有一个”heart“和-s可以注意，如果历史那么单线条的话，甚至根本就不用placed了，还分什么decisive与否？Medici family which had nourished the Renaissance in Flarence跟"Most historians agree that the ideas that characterized the Renaissance had their origin in late 13th century Florence..."说得也是两回子事儿，13世纪末的时候，Medici家族可能还真的是没什么底气呢，您这么一古脑儿的端给人家，别说人是律师惯会作反驳陈词的，就是说给我这样的外行，我也没法服气。
然后您也可以再查查名气可能小点儿的锡耶纳、帕多瓦，希望您不会说这是两票托斯卡纳对一票威尼托。
呵呵，信心来源有很多种，你说的是其中一种，不是吗？
你说的因为很多原因（稿费的原因倒是头次听说，不知道是不是普遍现象），书本和课堂不能面面俱到，这个我同意。这也就是我们需要好的大学机构、好的著作来替我们这些外行的人筛选出重点，给出主流的观点。正如同史学家对证据的可信度筛选判断，选择可靠的证据一样。
因为是信件，不是论文，我肯定只能摘录结论性的东西。比方Hunt, Jocelyn在DID THE RENAISSANCE BEGIN IN FLORENCE? 确实也谈到了别的地方的古典研究复苏现象，但是只要他在最后总结性的来个Nevertheless, it is Florence which is permanently associated with the initial changes of the Renaissance. 态度、立场不就是很清晰吗？
对于你最后提出的"13世纪末的时候，Medici家族可能还真的是没什么底气呢"，其实随便google一下就能找到相关信息的:"Members of the family rose to some prominence in the early 14th century in the wool trade, especially with France and Spain.“ 这是Medici家族的wikipedia词条下'rise to power'的介绍
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici. 哈哈，您太有趣儿了。您有您的立场，我没资格说啥，就我而言，我想好的研究不是给人相信的，所谓的主流观点更不是，专业学者不能靠相信别人混日子，外行读者更没有必要相信人家。至于您说的筛选，我倒是只看到您的筛选，而没看到好的大学机构、好的著作的筛选，当然啦，您的筛选想必亦是好的。
early 14th century跟13世纪末是一个时间吗？另外我说的是”没什么底气“嘛，您把wiki的词条往下看几行，就是我这么说的原因了。再进一步，在那个时候（13世纪末）他们怎么推动文艺复兴的，您再google一下，我没时间查。
至于您引的Nevertheless，我大概只能也nevertheless一下，您不仅没看懂我的话，也没看懂您引的话。
另外上次忘了提了，我不知道您怎么找出来一个J. Burke，您自己引的不明明是P. Burke吗？从JP Morgen那儿来的？关于您引的这个Burke先生，本论坛chaque兄有过很有趣的文章，不过您想必没看过。 最后一点稍微再查了下wiki别的视角:
Le fondateur de la puissance financière dès la première branche des Médicis qui influencera l'histoire florentine et Toscane est Giovanni (Jean) di Bicci qui fonde la banque des Médicis en 1397.
1397年成立了Medici银行
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici
Un primo esponente che fu anche un uomo politico di successo fu Salvestro de' Medici, che durante il Tumulto dei Ciompi (1378), in carica come gonfaloniere di giustizia...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici
早期在政治上崭露头脚是Medici家族的Salvestro((1331-1388) ，在1378年 il Tumulto dei Ciompi运动（起义）中，任gonfaloniere di giustizia.
对类似这些史料本身的进一步解读研究：如Medici在13世纪末期算不算有底气了，这些对文艺复兴的影响...等等， 我自己并不打算做。从我自己专业类推，正经有能力从事一个领域的研究需要多年的科班训练，需要掌握严格的研究方法。
因此，我只会停留在了解史料，进一步的总结和研究，我听科班权威的研究结果。 引用第10楼parivraj于2009-05-27 19:23发表的 "外行读者更没有必要相信人家。"
这个我和你的态度不太一样。这样的态度，哪怕是自己专业，在研究过程也容易陷入死角。你总不可能做时空飞船飞到历史现场去看吧？ 很多证据都是建立在别人研究的基础上的。
我作为绝大部分领域的外行，生物、历史、音乐、化学、社会学... 不相信别人不用根本没法构建起码的知识体系，连最基本的日子都没法过。
对待专业外的东西，我个人觉得关键是一个好的判断筛选标准，比如argument最基本逻辑的判断，对来源可信度的判断... 您还真是当真，我都被您相信了。
算了，不逗您玩儿了，您还有研究要做呢。 引用第14楼parivraj于2009-05-27 21:08发表的 :
您还真是当真，我都被您相信了。
算了，不逗您玩儿了，您还有研究要做呢。
谢谢你的回复！
偶没啥研究要做的，已经从学校出来了，整天闲得发慌...
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